Thanks for your discussion.

Actually sidebar width is 32 for paiting tools, and 50 for other.
I made a quick test and set it to 44 for everything, and i think i like it! "44" is very universal value, it is size suggested by apple, and we also use it as top toolbar height and in many other places.  I will release "width 44" in the next beta.
There is one small disadvantage - it shows less items when using "Swatches" mode (View > Colors Sidebar > Swatches)

Screenshots attached.

The majority of people here suggested for the sidebar to stay as small as possible when painting, so I definitely think it should stay at 32 width, it does look a lot better when it's thinner... Even for the top toolbar, most people would probably prefer to go back to it's previous thinner size, which is not possible right now due to the 3 dots.

Thanks for letting us know your opinion on this! I feel like having this would encourage the users to be more deliberate with the layer selection. Just like while using keyboard, you tend to select the first layer you'd like to "multi select" and then use cmd key to select the others.

When using a keyboard and using shift (or ctrl) its also possible to select/deselect any layer at any time, no need to be deliberate. It wouldn't be "encouraging", more so it would be restraining a certain kind of workflow like mine. Same with the extra step for deletion, especially since like you said, it's already very unlikely to accidently delete a layer by swiping far left, never had any problem with it. So again why find a solution for a problem that doesn't really exist

tho there's this bug which I've mentioned on the start of the thread ✨
https://youtu.be/vI24Sd1TrEg

Yes would be great if it was fixed

And here's how I imagine it might be able to be implemented on Artstudio Pro
https://youtu.be/YjVhihXSROs

So first you have to enter the "Multiple Layer Selection" mode. And while you're within that mode, the eye icon would now act as a selection icon. And you could freely drag on the eye icon. You might wanna have an animation where the eye icon turns into a selection icon to add clarity and intuitiveness

Thanks for that suggestion and the nice mockup! It's an alternative to what I suggested in the past, though it then wouldn't allow to hide/unhide layers during selection mode anymore, which is actually often needed to see at which layer you're currently on, or to hide/unhide other layers, or to confirm you’re on the correct ones etc. - while in select mode.

Maybe that row of check marks could appear next to the eye icon (only when in selection mode) that would address both and could possibly be easier to implement than what I’ve suggested on the other thread. But might not look as good, since it would change the UI within the selection mode and could look too cluttered or incohesive.

Btw/tldr also would still love the option to slide over the eye icons - in addition to just tapping them, like also explained on the other thread.

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Really appreciate your input! Curious what lucky clan will think about all of these

1. Bigger Sidebar

For the size, I personally think this'd be fine since the difference wouldn't be that much / noticable. "Virtually" the difference would just be around 24 pixels.

(....) as for the application within other similar app that might be of reference, I believe it is rather similar to how they do it on procreate as well and I think it still works and looks pretty fine.

I know 24px doesn't sound like a lot, but it can feel like a lot. Just like you believe that 24px increase will make it that much easier to use, I believe that 24px increase will make it that much less pleasant to look at permanently as the main UI.

Procreate sliders look very different to begin with, yet they would still be thinner and also much shorter than the wider ones you suggest for ASP. And I always preferred the thinner but longer ones in ASP ever since I switched from Procreate, I think it gives a more "professional" look and more length-room to change sizes/opacity.

I believe this implementation would come with a few caveats. That is if we make it this way as suggested, while it works in increasing the comfort of use, this would be rather less intuitive since you would activate the slider on the edge cases where you want to do something that should result in something else. For example, if you want to activate the finger gesture around that area, you'd instead activate the slider. Or on the edge cases where you'd want to draw within that area, it'd be less intuitive if the slider activates instead.

Most people probably don't draw or use most gestures that much on the edge of the screen anyway, but just look there. So I still think that it would be the better compromise, than a visually wider sidebar, when most people probably wouldn't even notice the benefit of it but would only notice that it did get wider for some reason.

Tho, I might not have been clear in communicating the usage of why I suggested the width increase. My usage is when you try not to look at the slider and try to change the size of brush. I will say from my own experience since I haven't really ask other people to try this, but this proves quite tricky to do due to the rather small active area. I believe increasing the sidebar size would communicate that it is okay to touch the sidebar a little bit to the right.

Thats a very specific use for it to permanently make the main UI look worse. I also just tried that, and personally didn't have trouble changing the sliders while not looking. Also there are already additional ways to change them without looking, such as the finger gestures or keyboard/controller shortcuts. So imo there's no real need to add even more, especially not if a negative UI change needs to be made just for it.

I also believe this sidebar case would be quite different from the Toolbar got bigger thread since the topside toolbar size addition didn't really offer any improved usability or UX, but rather to deal with an unexpected change by apple.

A wider sidebar also would also only offer "improved" UX for a very specific case, which would be - changing sizes, while not wanting to look at it, while not wanting to use the finger or keyboard options - For everything else there would just be a wider sidebar with no other benefits. So I definitely can imagine, that it wouldn’t be well received by many people.

But I do agree, keeping the sidebar small does look better since it looks more minimalistic. If above edge cases I mentioned is deemed acceptable then I do not mind having it implemented this way since it already addresses my point of having it more forgiving to use.

If you can even agree that keeping it narrow looks better and more minimalistic, then I think it should be save to say that it shouldn't be made wider. If just the wider "active area" thing, without making it visually bigger would be acceptable, is for the developers to decide, but like I said, I think it's definitely the better compromise than making the sidebar visually bigger for a use case that can already be solved in several different ways and is not a common issue.

2. Nudge mode

Ah, I believe “Touch and Hold” wouldn't be ideal. As I believe icezimy does as well, I change my brush size all the time. Having to hold to change brush size I believe would add a rather unnecessary waiting time that won't really be that comfortable to use. Additionally, I already love the current hold to eyedropper implementation of Artstudio Pro. But I do think that the gesture option for hold is a nice suggestion! ✨ I believe more options for the users would be better, since it could accomodate more kinds of workflow. I just personally don't think I would change the hold-to-eyedrop.

Nah I meant the "finger touch and hold" as an added option for opening the quick menu, which could be set to very low delay time, so it wouldn't be much of a delay. So basically, you could choose whether you want the eyedropper or the quick menu set to "finger touch and hold"

And then you can use the normal "one finger swipe" gesture that already exists right now, to change size/opacity instead of it triggering the quick menu, since that could then be the "finger touch and hold", like said above.

And the "touch and hold" for finger and apple pencil are two separate things. So you could still use the eyedropper "pencil touch and hold" gesture with the apple pencil, which is more precise imo than with the finger anyway.

tho, may I know whether you prefer for this not to be implemented? I believe this also goes along with your other concern you've raised before which is to minimize changes of the current implementation unless necessary, and add additional features as a toggle-able option. I believe this additional mode wouldn't change your current workflow since I imagine it'd be toggle-able.

Thanks for explaining a bit further! I get it now. But don't really have a strong opinion on this. Personally wouldn't need it since I use a controller/3 finger gesture to change sizes/opacity most of the time, and also mostly pick colors with the color wheel and not via the sidebar. And I have never felt like not having enough control over the sliders, be it with controller, keyboard, finger or pencil.

So as long as this nudge feature would be toggleable/optional and not be the "New default", I think it would be good to implement for people like you who might have had issues with it. Maybe the "wider sidebar thing" discussed above, would be able to get implemented just for the nudge mode, since I then see those two kinda going hand-in-hand.

3.Extra

Oh, I believe you could just tap on the color wheel circular slider for it to lock the luminosity. But I do think the lock option would be a nice addition as it is quite intuitive! Something like this maybe?

Yea that's kinda how I imagined it too

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Sorry if I repeated myself, not easy to answer such long texts lol
Thanks

1.

Sidebar width for Paint tool.

I have a suggestion to increase the sidebar width for the Paint tool to be as wide as other tools. I noticed that all other tools such as Lasso, Move, etc have this rather wider toolbar which is easier to reach rather than the narrower Paint tool sidebar. I believe the example of the already implemented slider size would be on the Elastify tool sidebar.

As someone who prefers the interface to be as minimal as possible, with the canvas space to be as maximized as possible I really have to disagree with the idea of making the sidebar wider, when it doesn’t need to be. Since probably only very few people might actually ever have an issue with the current width of the slider sizes anyway.

The wider sliders are okay for tools that are only used for short amount of times like the move tool, select tools, etc…those tools are also significantly shorter in height than the paint tool, eraser tool, smudge tool, dodge tool, wet paint tool, text tool, eyedropper tool etc. where it’s a lot  longer and thus looks imo a lot better and “canvas save spacing” when it’s narrow like how it is currently.

And the paint tool sliders are also on the screen constantly, except when in full-screen mode. So making them bigger would from my view also not look aesthetically pleasing, since the slider themselves are quite neat and narrow, so giving them an unnecessary big box around them, doesn’t seem right. If anything, I would suggest making the sidebar sliders for Elastify the same width like the current narrow paint/eraser/text etc. tool, if having it visually consistent between the them is a concern.

But as a compromise, maybe the active area could still be increased, but without making the box actually visually bigger. So for someone like Alfanders, it would be more forgiving, but also it wouldn’t interfere with the current minimal UI.

It’s already a bummer that the top toolbar had to get wider due to the 3 multitasking dots from Apple not being removable. And I remember many people on this forum didn’t receive that change well either, so probably making the paint tool sidebar wider, wouldn’t be desired by most people too.

“2. Nudge mode for the sidebar for Paint tool, Colors sidebar, and Elastify filter”

Instead of a Nudge mode, I would suggest to introduce a customizable “Touch and Hold” gesture into the gesture preferences. Since from what I understand, one of the main reasons for the nudge mode would be so you can change the the brush size/opacity with one finger, while also still having the quick menu accessible with one finger.

And the one finger hold gesture does already exist in ASP with the long press eye dropper finger gesture, so the “only” thing that would need to be changed is adding the option to change/customize what happens when long pressing the finger, and adding quick menu etc as an option, like for all the finger other gestures.

Also I didn’t understand the problem with choosing the brush sizes or colors, I can slide the current sliders very precisely to a desired size or color as well, you just have to drag and hold the slider instead of tapping. So I don’t quite understand where the actual difference or benefit would be to what you suggested?

”Extra”

Instead of using the full length for just the size slider, I would suggest a “lock” option for the sliders. Similar to how it is currently in the color wheel, where you can quickly lock the color luminosity with a long press on the slider. That same option but to lock the size/opacity/flow sliders on the side could be useful to some.

That’s all, Thanks

Just to add one more argument for the addition of the toggle.

In some other recent thread someone else requested the addition to remove the RGBA “color info” pop up on the screen when color picking, for a more distraction free workflow, which has since been added as a toggle to the beta, which I really like. And this didn’t get any thought about it potentially cluttering the preference menu. But now for some reason that exact same argument is not valid here, even tough the brush size pop up is much bigger and more distracting in my eyes than the color info one ever was, yet this doesn’t get a toggle.

It feels like - here is the option to turn off this little color info pop up window, but now have this giant brush size pop up window in the middle of the screen instead, which doesn’t make sense at all. I literally can’t understand that decision, it’s just completely in the way of drawing, and I need it so often, that it’s actually the reason to turn me off using the app(beta) like this, it’s just not enjoyable and always annoyingly covering something on the canvas. Making maximum use of the already limited screen size on the iPad, showing as much of the canvas as possible, should be the goal here, and that’s just not it in this case. If anything, I’d prefer for the finger size/opacity slider to be shown on the side as well instead of in the middle. So that it’s just always on the side no matter what, while the toggle would be on.

And I’m sure some others who use their keyboard to change sizes will feel the same. It might work for some the way it is now, but it’s apparently just not a “one size fits all” in this case and, thus it shouldn’t be dealt with that way. And besides all of that, when recording speedpaints including the interface, the brush size pop up would also constantly cover the canvas during said speedpaint. So I seriously hope it will be made completely optional.

I hope that optional toggle will actually be added. I see it as a serious issue right now in the Beta, to the point where I don't want to use it like this.

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Yes I agree with what you said, I've also made many suggestions in the past that were  implemented. But I think it's important to word suggestions in a way, so that other workflows won't get destroyed and rather treat new implementations(especially those that change the UI or core functionality) as an addition/option,  more often than not.

So the other way around they should also listen to those who actually prefer it the way it was, and should at least for such core functions, if there is a reasonble reason like you said(which in this case there obviously is) make it optional, even if it adds one additional toggle in the settings.

I understand… but I don’t think there’s another solution in this case, in order to please both kinds of workflow. And the way it is currently in the beta, is really distracting from painting, and in most other apps, it is also always shown on the side, for good reason.

Can this please be an optional in settings? I also change brush sizes via bluetooth controller and personally prefer things to not cover the artwork in the middle. So I think its actually good its shown on the side.

Thanks!